{"id":2657,"date":"2022-01-18T15:47:56","date_gmt":"2022-01-18T14:47:56","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/techleap-design.nl\/techleap\/?p=2657"},"modified":"2023-12-20T18:59:49","modified_gmt":"2023-12-20T17:59:49","slug":"the-scale-lab-special-2021-wrap-up-and-lessons-learned","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/blog\/the-scale-lab-special-2021-wrap-up-and-lessons-learned\/","title":{"rendered":"The Scale Lab Special: 2021 wrap-up and lessons learned with Constantijn van Oranje &amp; Joe Wilson"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<style type=\"text\/css\" data-created_by=\"avia_inline_auto\" id=\"style-css-av-18hdufo-42582efc04ccaefb3e7a9c2d25e0749d\">\n.avia-section.av-18hdufo-42582efc04ccaefb3e7a9c2d25e0749d{\nbackground-color:#ffffff;\nbackground-image:unset;\n}\n<\/style>\n<div id='header-blog'  class='avia-section av-18hdufo-42582efc04ccaefb3e7a9c2d25e0749d alternate_color avia-section-default avia-no-border-styling  avia-builder-el-0  el_before_av_section  avia-builder-el-first  avia-bg-style-scroll container_wrap fullsize'  ><div class='container av-section-cont-open' ><main  role=\"main\" itemprop=\"mainContentOfPage\"  class='template-page content  av-content-full alpha units'><div class='post-entry post-entry-type-page post-entry-2657'><div class='entry-content-wrapper clearfix'>\n<div class='flex_column_table av-15qnqwk-dc06b6b044d63f8eb332b8f505120424 sc-av_one_half av-equal-height-column-flextable'><div  class='flex_column av-15qnqwk-dc06b6b044d63f8eb332b8f505120424 av_one_half  avia-builder-el-1  el_before_av_one_half  avia-builder-el-first  first flex_column_table_cell av-equal-height-column av-align-middle  '     ><p><div  class='av-post-metadata-container av-locq4yq5-0d0029811fc0e8a75822a8a301b8b3db av-metadata-container-align-left  avia-builder-el-2  el_before_av_heading  avia-builder-el-first  av-metadata-container-1'><div class='av-post-metadata-container-inner'><span class=\"av-post-metadata-content av-post-metadata-meta-content\"><span class=\"av-post-metadata-content av-post-metadata-published\"><span class=\"av-post-metadata-published-date\" >January 18, 2022<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/div><\/div><br \/>\n\n<style type=\"text\/css\" data-created_by=\"avia_inline_auto\" id=\"style-css-av-117j6v8-f18a7b629b40e89ec6024621605821ee\">\n#top .av-special-heading.av-117j6v8-f18a7b629b40e89ec6024621605821ee{\npadding-bottom:10px;\n}\nbody .av-special-heading.av-117j6v8-f18a7b629b40e89ec6024621605821ee .av-special-heading-tag .heading-char{\nfont-size:25px;\n}\n.av-special-heading.av-117j6v8-f18a7b629b40e89ec6024621605821ee .av-subheading{\nfont-size:15px;\n}\n<\/style>\n<div  class='av-special-heading av-117j6v8-f18a7b629b40e89ec6024621605821ee av-special-heading-h1 blockquote modern-quote  avia-builder-el-3  el_after_av_post_metadata  avia-builder-el-last '><h1 class='av-special-heading-tag'  itemprop=\"headline\"  >The Scale Lab Special: 2021 wrap-up <span class='special_amp'>&amp;<\/span> lessons learned with Constantijn van Oranje <span class='special_amp'>&amp;<\/span> Joe Wilson<\/h1><div class=\"special-heading-border\"><div class=\"special-heading-inner-border\"><\/div><\/div><\/div><\/p><\/div><div class='av-flex-placeholder'><\/div><div  class='flex_column av-y8liwk-e0bbfca7a2272ea72a954823c9f13cd1 av_one_half  avia-builder-el-4  el_after_av_one_half  el_before_av_hr  flex_column_table_cell av-equal-height-column av-align-middle  '     ><style type=\"text\/css\" data-created_by=\"avia_inline_auto\" id=\"style-css-av-vvsyxg-4c4970df7f66afbd63dc297c908cb5bd\">\n.avia-image-container.av-vvsyxg-4c4970df7f66afbd63dc297c908cb5bd img.avia_image{\nbox-shadow:none;\n}\n.avia-image-container.av-vvsyxg-4c4970df7f66afbd63dc297c908cb5bd .av-image-caption-overlay-center{\ncolor:#ffffff;\n}\n<\/style>\n<div  class='avia-image-container av-vvsyxg-4c4970df7f66afbd63dc297c908cb5bd av-styling- avia-align-center  avia-builder-el-5  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Autoclose: 1 -->\n<style type=\"text\/css\" data-created_by=\"avia_inline_auto\" id=\"style-css-av-oscq44-36f869268c85cecccd4bfbd423eb3cfa\">\n#top .hr.hr-invisible.av-oscq44-36f869268c85cecccd4bfbd423eb3cfa{\nheight:50px;\n}\n<\/style>\n<div  class='hr av-oscq44-36f869268c85cecccd4bfbd423eb3cfa hr-invisible  avia-builder-el-6  el_after_av_one_half  avia-builder-el-last '><span class='hr-inner '><span class=\"hr-inner-style\"><\/span><\/span><\/div>\n\n<\/div><\/div><\/main><!-- close content main element --><\/div><\/div>\n<style type=\"text\/css\" data-created_by=\"avia_inline_auto\" id=\"style-css-av-u4ty9w-fa2cf5077c88f5a8f1e92e8be0ee90ad\">\n.avia-section.av-u4ty9w-fa2cf5077c88f5a8f1e92e8be0ee90ad{\nbackground-color:#ffffff;\nbackground-image:unset;\n}\n<\/style>\n<div id='content-blog'  class='avia-section av-u4ty9w-fa2cf5077c88f5a8f1e92e8be0ee90ad alternate_color avia-section-default avia-no-border-styling  avia-builder-el-7  el_after_av_section  el_before_av_section  avia-bg-style-scroll container_wrap fullsize'  ><div class='container av-section-cont-open' ><div class='template-page content  av-content-full alpha units'><div class='post-entry post-entry-type-page post-entry-2657'><div class='entry-content-wrapper clearfix'>\n<section  class='av_textblock_section av-tno0wk-19b821c824dfc5d44f6fb23273a6ef1e '   itemscope=\"itemscope\" itemtype=\"https:\/\/schema.org\/BlogPosting\" itemprop=\"blogPost\" ><div class='avia_textblock'  itemprop=\"text\" ><div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<h4 class=\"opening-text\">Season #1 of the Scale Lab featured 12 top founders with extremely inspiring stories and lots of crucial learnings that we\u2019re excited to have shared with our audience. While we work hard on releasing season #2 of our podcast, our hosts Constantijn &amp; Joe have reflected on their 2021 podcast learnings by looking back at their conversations with the scale icons from season #1. Alongside this, they also pinpointed what \u2018delights\u2019 and \u2018frustrates\u2019 them within the current state of things in the Dutch ecosystem.<\/h4>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:10:05&#093; Joe: What were the key things you\u2019ve learned about while establishing your product-market fit?\">\n<div class=\"c\"><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div><\/section>\n\n<style type=\"text\/css\" data-created_by=\"avia_inline_auto\" id=\"style-css-av-3mh76u-e0456cfb9398e37e1022e6e333022332\">\n#top .hr.hr-invisible.av-3mh76u-e0456cfb9398e37e1022e6e333022332{\nheight:50px;\n}\n<\/style>\n<div  class='hr av-3mh76u-e0456cfb9398e37e1022e6e333022332 hr-invisible  avia-builder-el-9  el_after_av_textblock  el_before_av_sidebar '><span class='hr-inner '><span class=\"hr-inner-style\"><\/span><\/span><\/div>\n<div  class='avia-builder-widget-area clearfix  avia-builder-el-10  el_after_av_hr  avia-builder-el-last '><div id=\"avia_auto_toc-2\" class=\"widget clearfix avia-widget-container avia_auto_toc avia_no_block_preview\"><div class=\"avia-preview-headline\">techleap Table of Contents<\/div><div class=\"avia-preview-info\">Title: <\/div><div class=\"avia-preview-in-front\">Table can only be rendered in frontend.<\/div><\/div><\/div>\n\n<\/div><\/div><\/div><!-- close content main div --><\/div><\/div>\n<style type=\"text\/css\" data-created_by=\"avia_inline_auto\" id=\"style-css-av-lnin7dil-690e09858cada6a8329eb467c4706a90\">\n.avia-section.av-lnin7dil-690e09858cada6a8329eb467c4706a90{\nbackground-color:#ffffff;\nbackground-image:unset;\n}\n<\/style>\n<div id='content-blog2'  class='avia-section av-lnin7dil-690e09858cada6a8329eb467c4706a90 alternate_color avia-section-default avia-no-border-styling  avia-builder-el-11  el_after_av_section  el_before_av_section  avia-bg-style-scroll container_wrap fullsize'  ><div class='container av-section-cont-open' ><div class='template-page content  av-content-full alpha units'><div class='post-entry post-entry-type-page post-entry-2657'><div class='entry-content-wrapper clearfix'>\n<section  class='av_textblock_section av-7e501g-35909eb2a2b69d0f09f12f6effe013ed '   itemscope=\"itemscope\" itemtype=\"https:\/\/schema.org\/BlogPosting\" itemprop=\"blogPost\" ><div class='avia_textblock'  itemprop=\"text\" ><div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:03:04&#093; Joe: When did you know you had a product-market fit with Sendcloud?\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:10:05&#093; Joe: What were the key things you\u2019ve learned about while establishing your product-market fit?\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:00:18&#093; Constantijn: Why do you think that in Europe we tend to celebrate entrepreneurs less compared to the U.S.? You are doing incredible stuff in the Netherlands, but it seems that it\u2019s being modestly talked about.\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:04:16&#093; Joe: Did you always have a product-market fit? Or were there key things you had to change to make it work for your product? \">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<h3>What will we talk about?<\/h3>\n<div>\n<p><strong>Constantijn<\/strong>\u00a0[00:00:36]: In this special 2021 wrap-up episode, I think it would make sense for us to touch upon some of the best insights we\u2019ve gathered throughout the last 13 episodes and spice them up with our own reflections. We obviously both have been very active this year with identifying some of the key issues faced by Dutch founders that we can support the community with, so we&#8217;d like to share them in this episode. We covered a variety of topics within our discussions &#8211; we talked about investment strategies, operations, hiring strategies, product-market fit, leadership, etc. Also, we reflected on what&#8217;s typical in the Dutch ecosystem. And maybe we can start there actually. You are an embedded American in the Netherlands. You have seen quite a lot in how entrepreneurialism in the Dutch tech scene is evolving. Maybe you can give us some of your high-level reflections on that?<\/p>\n<p><b>Joe\u00a0<\/b>[00:02:33]<b>\u00a0<\/b>After over 18 months of in-depth work with Rise companies and with Techleap.nl in general,\u00a0<b>I\u2019d say I\u2019ve got three or four areas of big frustrations and two or three of pure delight.<\/b>\u00a0<b>And I&#8217;m not trying to be nice. I&#8217;m just saying I don&#8217;t feel like I have to balance it, but that is true. So I will start with the frustrations, not the delight.\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"modular-image section\" data-section=\"\"><\/div>\n<\/div><\/section>\n\n<style type=\"text\/css\" data-created_by=\"avia_inline_auto\" id=\"style-css-av-3t4eau-910c2d984477e6f517f48168ab10174c\">\n#top .hr.hr-invisible.av-3t4eau-910c2d984477e6f517f48168ab10174c{\nheight:50px;\n}\n<\/style>\n<div  class='hr av-3t4eau-910c2d984477e6f517f48168ab10174c hr-invisible  avia-builder-el-13  el_after_av_textblock  el_before_av_textblock '><span class='hr-inner '><span class=\"hr-inner-style\"><\/span><\/span><\/div>\n<section  class='av_textblock_section av-locrp8pk-c994999d73500ca50d30e92a8f46c02e '   itemscope=\"itemscope\" itemtype=\"https:\/\/schema.org\/BlogPosting\" itemprop=\"blogPost\" ><div class='avia_textblock'  itemprop=\"text\" ><div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:03:04&#093; Joe: When did you know you had a product-market fit with Sendcloud?\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:10:05&#093; Joe: What were the key things you\u2019ve learned about while establishing your product-market fit?\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:00:18&#093; Constantijn: Why do you think that in Europe we tend to celebrate entrepreneurs less compared to the U.S.? You are doing incredible stuff in the Netherlands, but it seems that it\u2019s being modestly talked about.\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:08:10&#093; Constantijn: How big can Remote become in your opinion?\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"Joe\u2019s \u2018frustrations\u2019 about the state of things in the Dutch tech ecosystem: frustration #1 - Ambition level\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<h3>Joe\u2019s \u2018frustrations\u2019 about the state of things in the Dutch tech ecosystem: frustration #1 &#8211; Ambition level<\/h3>\n<div>\n<p>So one of the things that, I&#8217;d say, is bugging me and I don&#8217;t know the navigation around it is the concept of ambition in this country. I have a couple of flavours to that. One is I meet too many entrepreneurs who are afraid to think:\u00a0<i>\u2018Oh, this is going to be a big thing. It&#8217;s going to be global. It&#8217;s going to be a multibillion-dollar enterprise\u2019<\/i>. They&#8217;re afraid. They almost think it&#8217;s ridiculous to consider that as an outcome, and I&#8217;m not sure what drives that. But in parallel to that, I run into people, such as some of our guests, who are criticised and yet they go out and they build something incredible.<\/p>\n<p><b>Constantijn\u00a0<\/b>[00:03:56]\u00a0In a way success is being discounted.<\/p>\n<p><b>Joe\u00a0<\/b>[00:03:59]\u00a0Yes, in a way, Dutch entrepreneurs are fighting against their own culture when they&#8217;re trying to go do something pretty extraordinary. And I don&#8217;t know if this is some leftover from days gone by, but maybe I can return this question back to you &#8211; what do you think is the source of this?<\/p>\n<p><b>Constantijn\u00a0<\/b>[00:04:22]\u00a0I think that\u2019s a very fair point. We actually have measured the ambition levels of Dutch entrepreneurs in our research and have seen that they typically tend to be less ambitious than their European counterparts. But we are more entrepreneurial, funnily enough. So we tend to have more startups than other countries, because we tend to favor independence and autonomy &#8211; that\u2019s why we become entrepreneurs. Independence is our cultural trait. We are very much on the conceptual side of things. But when it comes to building a whole organisation &#8211; the processes around it, etc &#8211; we tend to be less interested in that part.<\/p>\n<p>Ambition is part of being an entrepreneur, of getting capital for your business, etc, which means that you need to convince people to invest in you. Having the right people around you is essential, if you get people asking you \u2018why are you so greedy\u2019, that won\u2019t particularly help.<\/p>\n<p>That said, all of our podcast guests so far have been very low-key &amp; humble, they came to the studio on their bikes, and you wouldn&#8217;t have said that they are super successful entrepreneurs unless you knew it.<\/p>\n<p>So another side to the coin is that a lot of Dutch entrepreneurs prefer to stay under the radar and build their businesses, instead of being placed on the pedestal<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"modular-image section\" data-section=\"\"><\/div>\n<\/div><\/section>\n\n<style type=\"text\/css\" data-created_by=\"avia_inline_auto\" id=\"style-css-av-h8zf9-e11147e38a85704a395ede9cf8ca12a2\">\n#top .hr.hr-invisible.av-h8zf9-e11147e38a85704a395ede9cf8ca12a2{\nheight:50px;\n}\n<\/style>\n<div  class='hr av-h8zf9-e11147e38a85704a395ede9cf8ca12a2 hr-invisible  avia-builder-el-15  el_after_av_textblock  el_before_av_image '><span class='hr-inner '><span class=\"hr-inner-style\"><\/span><\/span><\/div>\n\n<style type=\"text\/css\" data-created_by=\"avia_inline_auto\" id=\"style-css-av-lod0pmtn-3df0bb4eb6ff4cbf6231170f8d7e2834\">\n.avia-image-container.av-lod0pmtn-3df0bb4eb6ff4cbf6231170f8d7e2834 img.avia_image{\nbox-shadow:none;\n}\n.avia-image-container.av-lod0pmtn-3df0bb4eb6ff4cbf6231170f8d7e2834 .av-image-caption-overlay-center{\ncolor:#ffffff;\n}\n<\/style>\n<div  class='avia-image-container av-lod0pmtn-3df0bb4eb6ff4cbf6231170f8d7e2834 av-styling- avia-align-center  avia-builder-el-16  el_after_av_hr  el_before_av_textblock '   itemprop=\"image\" itemscope=\"itemscope\" itemtype=\"https:\/\/schema.org\/ImageObject\" ><div class=\"avia-image-container-inner\"><div class=\"avia-image-overlay-wrap\"><img decoding=\"async\" fetchpriority=\"high\" class='wp-image-2664 avia-img-lazy-loading-not-2664 avia_image ' src=\"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2023\/10\/Joe-wilson-for-the-scale-lab-podcast.webp\" alt='' title='Joe wilson for the scale lab podcast'  height=\"451\" width=\"800\"  itemprop=\"thumbnailUrl\" srcset=\"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2023\/10\/Joe-wilson-for-the-scale-lab-podcast.webp 800w, https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2023\/10\/Joe-wilson-for-the-scale-lab-podcast-300x169.webp 300w, https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2023\/10\/Joe-wilson-for-the-scale-lab-podcast-768x433.webp 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\" \/><\/div><\/div><\/div>\n<section  class='av_textblock_section av-lod0ruyy-0cc2736353e594c5651d63f77da5d7db '   itemscope=\"itemscope\" itemtype=\"https:\/\/schema.org\/BlogPosting\" itemprop=\"blogPost\" ><div class='avia_textblock'  itemprop=\"text\" ><div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:03:04&#093; Joe: When did you know you had a product-market fit with Sendcloud?\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:10:05&#093; Joe: What were the key things you\u2019ve learned about while establishing your product-market fit?\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:00:18&#093; Constantijn: Why do you think that in Europe we tend to celebrate entrepreneurs less compared to the U.S.? You are doing incredible stuff in the Netherlands, but it seems that it\u2019s being modestly talked about.\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:08:10&#093; Constantijn: How big can Remote become in your opinion?\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"Joe\u2019s \u2018frustrations\u2019 about the state of things in the Dutch tech ecosystem: frustration #1 - Ambition level\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<h3>Frustration #2: No organic connection between Dutch entrepreneurs<\/h3>\n<div>\n<p><b>Joe\u00a0<\/b>[00:07:58]\u00a0The second frustration of mine relates to the organic connection of founders not happening in the Netherlands. When compared to the US, we see that American founders tend to connect with each other organically. So the question is why do we have a third party like Techleap.nl that connects entrepreneurs with each other? Why don\u2019t they just reach out to each other and get together naturally &#8211; say every other Tuesday night to discuss what it takes to get through different businesses phases?<\/p>\n<p><b>Constantijn\u00a0<\/b>[00:08:54]\u00a0I think this is one of my frustrations too. It&#8217;s not just about getting together locally, which is obviously the easy thing to do but also reaching out to people within the same sector on an (inter)national level.<\/p>\n<p>While we do not know the exact reasons why there is a lack of interest in organic connection\/networking, we do know that the ecosystems that have well-connected entrepreneurs benefit from it a lot.<\/p>\n<p>Maybe it\u2019s somewhat odd that Techleap.nl is driving the idea of establishing a founder community since it\u2019s founders who ideally should be in charge of that. Nonetheless, we are strong believers that learning within an engaged community is much faster and more efficient. However, it\u2019s not to say that no one within the Dutch ecosystem organises dinners and founder-focused events &#8211; that\u2019s untrue. We don\u2019t want to be completely critical here, as there are proactive people with a lot of initiative out there.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"modular-image section\" data-section=\"\"><\/div>\n<\/div><\/section>\n\n<style type=\"text\/css\" data-created_by=\"avia_inline_auto\" id=\"style-css-av-2mvwq9-1011d9c8c0d9e611ca557a82b1db862e\">\n#top .hr.hr-invisible.av-2mvwq9-1011d9c8c0d9e611ca557a82b1db862e{\nheight:20px;\n}\n<\/style>\n<div  class='hr av-2mvwq9-1011d9c8c0d9e611ca557a82b1db862e hr-invisible  avia-builder-el-18  el_after_av_textblock  el_before_av_image '><span class='hr-inner '><span class=\"hr-inner-style\"><\/span><\/span><\/div>\n\n<style type=\"text\/css\" data-created_by=\"avia_inline_auto\" id=\"style-css-av-lod0sdds-ccdf5f2b2ae86f238281cf4a99594bf2\">\n.avia-image-container.av-lod0sdds-ccdf5f2b2ae86f238281cf4a99594bf2 img.avia_image{\nbox-shadow:none;\n}\n.avia-image-container.av-lod0sdds-ccdf5f2b2ae86f238281cf4a99594bf2 .av-image-caption-overlay-center{\ncolor:#ffffff;\n}\n<\/style>\n<div  class='avia-image-container av-lod0sdds-ccdf5f2b2ae86f238281cf4a99594bf2 av-styling- avia-align-center  avia-builder-el-19  el_after_av_hr  el_before_av_textblock '   itemprop=\"image\" itemscope=\"itemscope\" itemtype=\"https:\/\/schema.org\/ImageObject\" ><div class=\"avia-image-container-inner\"><div class=\"avia-image-overlay-wrap\"><img decoding=\"async\" fetchpriority=\"high\" class='wp-image-2663 avia-img-lazy-loading-not-2663 avia_image ' src=\"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2023\/10\/Constantijn-van-Oranje-in-the-Scale-Lab-podcast.webp\" alt='' title='Constantijn van Oranje in the Scale Lab podcast'  height=\"451\" width=\"800\"  itemprop=\"thumbnailUrl\" srcset=\"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2023\/10\/Constantijn-van-Oranje-in-the-Scale-Lab-podcast.webp 800w, https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2023\/10\/Constantijn-van-Oranje-in-the-Scale-Lab-podcast-300x169.webp 300w, https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2023\/10\/Constantijn-van-Oranje-in-the-Scale-Lab-podcast-768x433.webp 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\" \/><\/div><\/div><\/div>\n<section  class='av_textblock_section av-lod0t6u6-f6b235511d19e556058e0ffe83de3ee3 '   itemscope=\"itemscope\" itemtype=\"https:\/\/schema.org\/BlogPosting\" itemprop=\"blogPost\" ><div class='avia_textblock'  itemprop=\"text\" ><div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:03:04&#093; Joe: When did you know you had a product-market fit with Sendcloud?\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:10:05&#093; Joe: What were the key things you\u2019ve learned about while establishing your product-market fit?\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:00:18&#093; Constantijn: Why do you think that in Europe we tend to celebrate entrepreneurs less compared to the U.S.? You are doing incredible stuff in the Netherlands, but it seems that it\u2019s being modestly talked about.\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:08:10&#093; Constantijn: How big can Remote become in your opinion?\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"Joe\u2019s \u2018frustrations\u2019 about the state of things in the Dutch tech ecosystem: frustration #1 - Ambition level\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"Frustration #3: It\u2019s too complicated to be an investor and too conservative to be a founder\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<h3>Frustration #3: It\u2019s too complicated to be an investor and too conservative to be a founder<\/h3>\n<div>\n<p><b>Joe<\/b>\u00a0[00:11:05]: I think from a money perspective, it seems to be both too complicated to be an investor as well as it seems to be too conservative to be a founder &#8211; you\u2019re negotiating valuations &amp; your round in a twice more complicated way than you\u2019d need to &#8211; when compared to US or Israel. They\u2019ve found their way to simplification at least within the early rounds. Investors at the same time try to push the valuations down, so there is almost a combative situation there between investors and founders. Just to give an example without giving any names, there have been at least 5-6 companies in the last 6 months who were hesitant to raise money in the Netherlands. They much want to go for UK &amp; US investors because &#8211; 1) they will get better valuations; 2) they\u2019ll be getting more money continuously, round after round; 3) they think they will get a fairer deal. While the first 2 are accurate, for the third one &#8211; I am not so sure if it\u2019s fairer or less fair. But there is a specific perception there that Dutch VC are making it too hard to raise money in the Netherlands.<\/p>\n<p><b>Constantijn\u00a0<\/b>[00:12:42]:\u00a0Agree. I also think it has to do with maturity and supply &amp; demand &#8211;\u00a0 demand for capital &amp; limited supply. Also, there is a lot of competition from funds &amp; VCs outside the Netherlands, which will drive better service &amp; terms of getting investments in the long term.\u00a0<b>What we hear a lot is that investors want a lot of control.<\/b>\u00a0Data shows that early rounds are relatively small, though the volume of investments has been continuously rising. Therefore, the largest share of the money is being raised in the later stages. A lot of the founders are made to be looking beyond their local investors.\u00a0<b>The limited supply of investors in some parts of the country and the terms applied have created an environment where people feel that venture capital is a bad thing.<\/b>\u00a0So they will shy away from even having capital conversations because they don\u2019t want to give away control. They know that investors want board seats in the company instead of supporting founders. However, I don\u2019t want to generalise here, as I also don\u2019t know the situation in other countries. I assume a lot of this stuff is out there in other countries as well.<\/p>\n<p>One thing is clear &#8211; we need to identify those practices that you do not want to experience &#8211; both as an investor and a founder. I remember during our podcast with\u00a0Pieter van der Does, he said that the terms are more important than the money.\u00a0<b>You have to enter into a good relationship with your investor and know that you\u2019re aligned on the shared purpose, otherwise, it will cause a lot of stress.<\/b>\u00a0We saw founders that were unhappy with the investors\u2019 terms but still went for it for the money without thinking about the consequences and the next rounds that they are going to raise. I really do think that more learning is needed from the founders\u2019 side and more responsibility from the investors\u2019 side.<\/p>\n<p><b>Joe\u00a0<\/b>[00:16:44]<b>\u00a0<\/b>I think founders need to be smarter about it. You cannot just go into your series A without knowing your investment bread and butter. There is a lot of information online, just go to the Y Combinator website and you\u2019ll get insights from A-Z, such as signing safe agreements, valuations, etc.<\/p>\n<p><b>Constantijn\u00a0<\/b>[00:17:08]<b>\u00a0<\/b>Absolutely! But a lot of that knowledge comes from experience. \u2018You own your board\u2019 is what a lot of our podcast guests, who are the more experienced entrepreneurs, would say.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"modular-image section\" data-section=\"\"><\/div>\n<\/div><\/section>\n\n<style type=\"text\/css\" data-created_by=\"avia_inline_auto\" id=\"style-css-av-bb4h81-254018e44697ebbd34ffff6c76903fbd\">\n#top .hr.hr-invisible.av-bb4h81-254018e44697ebbd34ffff6c76903fbd{\nheight:50px;\n}\n<\/style>\n<div  class='hr av-bb4h81-254018e44697ebbd34ffff6c76903fbd hr-invisible  avia-builder-el-21  el_after_av_textblock  el_before_av_textblock '><span class='hr-inner '><span class=\"hr-inner-style\"><\/span><\/span><\/div>\n<section  class='av_textblock_section av-8lv3u9-df56e90b1d9e936ef92429a83dc9a987 '   itemscope=\"itemscope\" itemtype=\"https:\/\/schema.org\/BlogPosting\" itemprop=\"blogPost\" ><div class='avia_textblock'  itemprop=\"text\" ><div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:03:04&#093; Joe: When did you know you had a product-market fit with Sendcloud?\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:10:05&#093; Joe: What were the key things you\u2019ve learned about while establishing your product-market fit?\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:00:18&#093; Constantijn: Why do you think that in Europe we tend to celebrate entrepreneurs less compared to the U.S.? You are doing incredible stuff in the Netherlands, but it seems that it\u2019s being modestly talked about.\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:08:10&#093; Constantijn: How big can Remote become in your opinion?\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"Joe\u2019s \u2018frustrations\u2019 about the state of things in the Dutch tech ecosystem: frustration #1 - Ambition level\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"Frustration #3: It\u2019s too complicated to be an investor and too conservative to be a founder\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<h3>Joe\u2019s three \u2018delights\u2019 about the Dutch tech ecosystem: Delight #1 &#8211; Infinite source of good ideas<\/h3>\n<div>\n<p><b>Joe\u00a0<\/b>[00:17:33]:\u00a0There is almost an infinite source of good ideas. We\u2019ve got a deeptech sector, a bio, sustainability, we got universities supporting those sectors with funding, a remarkable SaaS industry. There are many great sources of ideas, though a lot of that innovation cannot be capitalised on.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"modular-image section\" data-section=\"\"><\/div>\n<\/div><\/section>\n\n<style type=\"text\/css\" data-created_by=\"avia_inline_auto\" id=\"style-css-av-799hq9-8a5da7c84939b9b87d8d9354765685d2\">\n#top .hr.hr-invisible.av-799hq9-8a5da7c84939b9b87d8d9354765685d2{\nheight:50px;\n}\n<\/style>\n<div  class='hr av-799hq9-8a5da7c84939b9b87d8d9354765685d2 hr-invisible  avia-builder-el-23  el_after_av_textblock  el_before_av_textblock '><span class='hr-inner '><span class=\"hr-inner-style\"><\/span><\/span><\/div>\n<section  class='av_textblock_section av-lod0ucc0-dca3e139d347d7dbe7b18522a2f19009 '   itemscope=\"itemscope\" itemtype=\"https:\/\/schema.org\/BlogPosting\" itemprop=\"blogPost\" ><div class='avia_textblock'  itemprop=\"text\" ><div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:03:04&#093; Joe: When did you know you had a product-market fit with Sendcloud?\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:10:05&#093; Joe: What were the key things you\u2019ve learned about while establishing your product-market fit?\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:00:18&#093; Constantijn: Why do you think that in Europe we tend to celebrate entrepreneurs less compared to the U.S.? You are doing incredible stuff in the Netherlands, but it seems that it\u2019s being modestly talked about.\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:08:10&#093; Constantijn: How big can Remote become in your opinion?\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"Joe\u2019s \u2018frustrations\u2019 about the state of things in the Dutch tech ecosystem: frustration #1 - Ambition level\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"Frustration #3: It\u2019s too complicated to be an investor and too conservative to be a founder\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"Delight #2: The number of very capable Dutch leaders\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<h3>Delight #2: The number of very capable Dutch leaders<\/h3>\n<div>\n<p><b>Joe\u00a0<\/b>[00:19:00]<b>\u00a0<\/b>The second delight I have &#8211; I am suprised by the number of remarkable leaders that I meet. There is a lot of leaders in the Netherlands who are able to lead their companies to impressive growth.\u00a0<b>There is a natural democratic approach to running a company, a more modern approach to leadership. It seems to be a Dutch way of seeing the potential in your team and letting everyone do their job in the best way possible.<\/b> There is also operational expertise in most entrepreneurs I meet, which means that they can look down at the operations they run and adjust the process when necessary.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"modular-image section\" data-section=\"\"><\/div>\n<\/div><\/section>\n\n<style type=\"text\/css\" data-created_by=\"avia_inline_auto\" id=\"style-css-av-6h4z41-380559902700543bef063c7215280bd0\">\n#top .hr.hr-invisible.av-6h4z41-380559902700543bef063c7215280bd0{\nheight:50px;\n}\n<\/style>\n<div  class='hr av-6h4z41-380559902700543bef063c7215280bd0 hr-invisible  avia-builder-el-25  el_after_av_textblock  el_before_av_textblock '><span class='hr-inner '><span class=\"hr-inner-style\"><\/span><\/span><\/div>\n<section  class='av_textblock_section av-lod0vg73-20cf142454aad9ba3b92f086a2b3dae3 '   itemscope=\"itemscope\" itemtype=\"https:\/\/schema.org\/BlogPosting\" itemprop=\"blogPost\" ><div class='avia_textblock'  itemprop=\"text\" ><div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:03:04&#093; Joe: When did you know you had a product-market fit with Sendcloud?\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:10:05&#093; Joe: What were the key things you\u2019ve learned about while establishing your product-market fit?\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:00:18&#093; Constantijn: Why do you think that in Europe we tend to celebrate entrepreneurs less compared to the U.S.? You are doing incredible stuff in the Netherlands, but it seems that it\u2019s being modestly talked about.\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:08:10&#093; Constantijn: How big can Remote become in your opinion?\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"Joe\u2019s \u2018frustrations\u2019 about the state of things in the Dutch tech ecosystem: frustration #1 - Ambition level\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"Frustration #3: It\u2019s too complicated to be an investor and too conservative to be a founder\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"Delight #2: The number of very capable Dutch leaders\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"Delight #3: The product-driven approach to business\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<h3>Delight #3: The product-driven approach to business<\/h3>\n<div>\n<p>Lastly, a great delight is that most of the founders in the Netherlands tend to be product-driven first, as opposed to adopting an\u00a0<i>\u2018oh, it\u2019s a great business idea, let\u2019s make a businessy thing and put tech underneath it\u2019\u00a0<\/i>&#8211; kind of approach. Those are the leadership traits that I think a lot of companies would like to have.<\/p>\n<p><b>Constantijn\u00a0<\/b>[00:20:42]<b>\u00a0<\/b>We also recently discussed the techiness of founders, seems that you can find that more in the US or Israeli entrepreneurs. Meantime, here in the Netherlands a lot of the founders seem to have a more business background.<\/p>\n<p><b>Joe\u00a0<\/b>[00:21:11]<b>\u00a0<\/b>Looking at all our past podcast guests, we see that a lot of founders with breakthrough businesses tend to be technology-driven.<\/p>\n<p><b>Constantijn\u00a0<\/b>[00:21:46]<b>\u00a0<\/b>Technology-driven but not coders themselves.<\/p>\n<p><b>Joe\u00a0<\/b>[00:21:49]<b>\u00a0<\/b>Definition of tech has changed a lot in the past years though, it\u2019s not all about coding anymore. It\u2019s more about the appreciation and understanding of the technology itself. Take\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/anchor.fm\/techleapnl\/episodes\/Episode-5-How-Manon-van-Essen-upscaled-her-homemade-vegan-pizza-into-the-Magioni-brand-euush8\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Pieter van der Does<\/a> as an example, he doesn\u2019t code himself, but he is so focused on the role the technology plays at Adyen. And so are all the other guests that joined our podcast &#8211; they are all basing their businesses on strong technology.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"modular-image section\" data-section=\"\"><\/div>\n<\/div><\/section>\n\n<style type=\"text\/css\" data-created_by=\"avia_inline_auto\" id=\"style-css-av-3rngip-da6762c0128e203b7bde9c45d3d74ef4\">\n#top .hr.hr-invisible.av-3rngip-da6762c0128e203b7bde9c45d3d74ef4{\nheight:50px;\n}\n<\/style>\n<div  class='hr av-3rngip-da6762c0128e203b7bde9c45d3d74ef4 hr-invisible  avia-builder-el-27  el_after_av_textblock  el_before_av_image '><span class='hr-inner '><span class=\"hr-inner-style\"><\/span><\/span><\/div>\n\n<style type=\"text\/css\" data-created_by=\"avia_inline_auto\" id=\"style-css-av-lod0vz99-db3185813b364a9f62ca90569eeebf63\">\n.avia-image-container.av-lod0vz99-db3185813b364a9f62ca90569eeebf63 img.avia_image{\nbox-shadow:none;\n}\n.avia-image-container.av-lod0vz99-db3185813b364a9f62ca90569eeebf63 .av-image-caption-overlay-center{\ncolor:#ffffff;\n}\n<\/style>\n<div  class='avia-image-container av-lod0vz99-db3185813b364a9f62ca90569eeebf63 av-styling- avia-align-center  avia-builder-el-28  el_after_av_hr  el_before_av_textblock '   itemprop=\"image\" itemscope=\"itemscope\" itemtype=\"https:\/\/schema.org\/ImageObject\" ><div class=\"avia-image-container-inner\"><div class=\"avia-image-overlay-wrap\"><img decoding=\"async\" fetchpriority=\"high\" class='wp-image-2662 avia-img-lazy-loading-not-2662 avia_image ' src=\"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2023\/10\/Constantijn-van-Oranje-Pieter-van-der-Does-and-Joe-Wilson.webp\" alt='' title='Constantijn van Oranje, Pieter van der Does, and Joe Wilson'  height=\"451\" width=\"800\"  itemprop=\"thumbnailUrl\" srcset=\"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2023\/10\/Constantijn-van-Oranje-Pieter-van-der-Does-and-Joe-Wilson.webp 800w, https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2023\/10\/Constantijn-van-Oranje-Pieter-van-der-Does-and-Joe-Wilson-300x169.webp 300w, https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2023\/10\/Constantijn-van-Oranje-Pieter-van-der-Does-and-Joe-Wilson-768x433.webp 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\" \/><\/div><\/div><\/div>\n<section  class='av_textblock_section av-lod0wh0y-e95e10c88c530ff1c82568c8430346df '   itemscope=\"itemscope\" itemtype=\"https:\/\/schema.org\/BlogPosting\" itemprop=\"blogPost\" ><div class='avia_textblock'  itemprop=\"text\" ><div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:03:04&#093; Joe: When did you know you had a product-market fit with Sendcloud?\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:10:05&#093; Joe: What were the key things you\u2019ve learned about while establishing your product-market fit?\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:00:18&#093; Constantijn: Why do you think that in Europe we tend to celebrate entrepreneurs less compared to the U.S.? You are doing incredible stuff in the Netherlands, but it seems that it\u2019s being modestly talked about.\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:08:10&#093; Constantijn: How big can Remote become in your opinion?\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"Joe\u2019s \u2018frustrations\u2019 about the state of things in the Dutch tech ecosystem: frustration #1 - Ambition level\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"Frustration #3: It\u2019s too complicated to be an investor and too conservative to be a founder\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"Delight #2: The number of very capable Dutch leaders\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"Delight #3: The product-driven approach to business\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<p><b>Constantijn\u00a0<\/b>[00:23:25]\u00a0We have a lot of these discussions at Techleap.nl as well &#8211; how much tech does a company actually need to be considered tech-driven?\u00a0 What criteria should you apply to measure that? We see more often that it\u2019s becoming more challenging to qualify what\u2019s a tech company. If you apply tech logic to creating the best vegetable-based pizza\u00a0(referring to\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/anchor.fm\/techleapnl\/episodes\/Episode-5-How-Manon-van-Essen-upscaled-her-homemade-vegan-pizza-into-the-Magioni-brand-euush8\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Manon van Essen episode)<\/a>, why wouldn\u2019t you be considered part of our tech community? That said, can you maybe elaborate on how founders can get their tech right?<\/p>\n<p><b>Joe\u00a0<\/b>[00:26:47]<b>\u00a0<\/b>Throughout my journey as an entrepreneur-in-residence at Techleap.nl, I got to talk with a lot of different companies. And step by step, I got to differentiate a variety of founder archetypes &#8211; the ones who\u2019re going to build the minimum tech to be able to secure the company, as opposed to the ones focused specifically on building the greatest product possible. I think we underinvest too often in technology.\u00a0<b>I believe that if you don\u2019t have 50% of your staff focused on product building and developing the best technology, you\u2019re missing out. So that\u2019s partially an answer to how you can get it right.<\/b><\/p>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"modular-image section\" data-section=\"\"><\/div>\n<\/div><\/section>\n\n<style type=\"text\/css\" data-created_by=\"avia_inline_auto\" id=\"style-css-av-bexpt-829e94ecf80a392773fd11f59de2c48d\">\n#top .hr.hr-invisible.av-bexpt-829e94ecf80a392773fd11f59de2c48d{\nheight:50px;\n}\n<\/style>\n<div  class='hr av-bexpt-829e94ecf80a392773fd11f59de2c48d hr-invisible  avia-builder-el-30  el_after_av_textblock  el_before_av_image '><span class='hr-inner '><span class=\"hr-inner-style\"><\/span><\/span><\/div>\n\n<style type=\"text\/css\" data-created_by=\"avia_inline_auto\" id=\"style-css-av-lod0wyyz-b11ff5da48614c96b417ff27af0253ce\">\n.avia-image-container.av-lod0wyyz-b11ff5da48614c96b417ff27af0253ce img.avia_image{\nbox-shadow:none;\n}\n.avia-image-container.av-lod0wyyz-b11ff5da48614c96b417ff27af0253ce .av-image-caption-overlay-center{\ncolor:#ffffff;\n}\n<\/style>\n<div  class='avia-image-container av-lod0wyyz-b11ff5da48614c96b417ff27af0253ce av-styling- avia-align-center  avia-builder-el-31  el_after_av_hr  el_before_av_textblock '   itemprop=\"image\" itemscope=\"itemscope\" itemtype=\"https:\/\/schema.org\/ImageObject\" ><div class=\"avia-image-container-inner\"><div class=\"avia-image-overlay-wrap\"><img decoding=\"async\" fetchpriority=\"high\" class='wp-image-2661 avia-img-lazy-loading-not-2661 avia_image ' src=\"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2023\/10\/Constantijn-van-Oranje-Manon-van-Essen-and-Joe-Wilson.webp\" alt='' title='Constantijn van Oranje, Manon van Essen and Joe Wilson'  height=\"451\" width=\"800\"  itemprop=\"thumbnailUrl\" srcset=\"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2023\/10\/Constantijn-van-Oranje-Manon-van-Essen-and-Joe-Wilson.webp 800w, https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2023\/10\/Constantijn-van-Oranje-Manon-van-Essen-and-Joe-Wilson-300x169.webp 300w, https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2023\/10\/Constantijn-van-Oranje-Manon-van-Essen-and-Joe-Wilson-768x433.webp 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\" \/><\/div><\/div><\/div>\n<section  class='av_textblock_section av-lod0xzze-211d2b633db42f85406026fcec8c5582 '   itemscope=\"itemscope\" itemtype=\"https:\/\/schema.org\/BlogPosting\" itemprop=\"blogPost\" ><div class='avia_textblock'  itemprop=\"text\" ><div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:03:04&#093; Joe: When did you know you had a product-market fit with Sendcloud?\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:10:05&#093; Joe: What were the key things you\u2019ve learned about while establishing your product-market fit?\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:00:18&#093; Constantijn: Why do you think that in Europe we tend to celebrate entrepreneurs less compared to the U.S.? You are doing incredible stuff in the Netherlands, but it seems that it\u2019s being modestly talked about.\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"&#091;00:08:10&#093; Constantijn: How big can Remote become in your opinion?\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"Joe\u2019s \u2018frustrations\u2019 about the state of things in the Dutch tech ecosystem: frustration #1 - Ambition level\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"Frustration #3: It\u2019s too complicated to be an investor and too conservative to be a founder\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"Delight #2: The number of very capable Dutch leaders\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<div class=\"modular-text section\" data-section=\"Delight #3: The product-driven approach to business\">\n<div class=\"c\">\n<p><b>Constantijn\u00a0<\/b>[00:28:14]<b>\u00a0<\/b>In this podcast we talk a lot about \u2018momentum vs. precision\u2019, and all of our guests so far have chosen \u2018momentum\u2019. What are your thoughts on that &#8211; is it really an unequivocal decision?<\/p>\n<p><b>Joe\u00a0<\/b>[00:28:55]The choice of \u2018momentum\u2019 over \u2018precision\u2019 seems a consistent one with all the guests of our podcast. Not sure if it\u2019s a firm belief or if it\u2019s nostalgia speaking, as in \u2018when looking back, we always went for \u2018momentum\u2019.\u00a0<b>In any case, I don\u2019t think there is perfection with any product.<\/b>\u00a0You\u2019re always taking a chance you\u2019ll never know.\u00a0<b>All those wonderful success stories we\u2019ve heard so far have 3 pieces to them:<\/b><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><b>A product-focused organisation;<\/b><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<ul>\n<li><b>Enough capital (fuel) to get there;<\/b><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<ul>\n<li><b>And they all seem to hit that window of timing;<\/b><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>So I assume that you at least want to de-risk the timing problem. And the best way to do that is by being a product-focused company.<\/p>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"modular-image section\" data-section=\"\"><\/div>\n<\/div><\/section>\n\n<\/div><\/div><\/div><!-- close content main div --><\/div><\/div>\n<style type=\"text\/css\" data-created_by=\"avia_inline_auto\" id=\"style-css-av-locvzi5l-0d57cb1169ff0f9cef2bf0764bd3a8c0\">\n.avia-section.av-locvzi5l-0d57cb1169ff0f9cef2bf0764bd3a8c0{\nbackground-color:#ffffff;\nbackground-image:unset;\n}\n<\/style>\n<div id='quote-section'  class='avia-section av-locvzi5l-0d57cb1169ff0f9cef2bf0764bd3a8c0 alternate_color avia-section-large avia-no-border-styling  avia-builder-el-33  el_after_av_section  el_before_av_section  avia-bg-style-scroll container_wrap fullsize'  ><div class='container av-section-cont-open' ><div class='template-page content  av-content-full alpha units'><div class='post-entry post-entry-type-page post-entry-2657'><div class='entry-content-wrapper clearfix'>\n<div class='flex_column_table av-3q1svd-161635e08fc2fae4d4fa89e0b8b7a198 sc-av_one_half av-equal-height-column-flextable'><div  class='flex_column av-3q1svd-161635e08fc2fae4d4fa89e0b8b7a198 av_one_half  avia-builder-el-34  el_before_av_one_half  avia-builder-el-first  first no_margin flex_column_table_cell av-equal-height-column av-align-top  '     ><style type=\"text\/css\" data-created_by=\"avia_inline_auto\" id=\"style-css-av-locvz3a1-a1453a94e79ec4839fed868b2848724f\">\n.avia-image-container.av-locvz3a1-a1453a94e79ec4839fed868b2848724f img.avia_image{\nbox-shadow:none;\n}\n.avia-image-container.av-locvz3a1-a1453a94e79ec4839fed868b2848724f .av-image-caption-overlay-center{\ncolor:#ffffff;\n}\n<\/style>\n<div  class='avia-image-container av-locvz3a1-a1453a94e79ec4839fed868b2848724f av-styling-no-styling avia-align-center  avia-builder-el-35  avia-builder-el-no-sibling '   itemprop=\"image\" itemscope=\"itemscope\" itemtype=\"https:\/\/schema.org\/ImageObject\" ><div class=\"avia-image-container-inner\"><div class=\"avia-image-overlay-wrap\"><img decoding=\"async\" fetchpriority=\"high\" class='wp-image-2660 avia-img-lazy-loading-not-2660 avia_image ' src=\"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2023\/10\/Constantijn-and-Joe-500x451.webp\" alt='' title='Constantijn and Joe'  height=\"451\" width=\"500\"  itemprop=\"thumbnailUrl\"  \/><\/div><\/div><\/div><\/div>\n<style type=\"text\/css\" data-created_by=\"avia_inline_auto\" id=\"style-css-av-a17k9-5639690f7bfff9a24f7bdfdafaf0d162\">\n.flex_column.av-a17k9-5639690f7bfff9a24f7bdfdafaf0d162{\npadding:30px 40px 40px 90px;\n}\n<\/style>\n<div  class='flex_column av-a17k9-5639690f7bfff9a24f7bdfdafaf0d162 av_one_half  avia-builder-el-36  el_after_av_one_half  avia-builder-el-last  no_margin flex_column_table_cell av-equal-height-column av-align-top  '     ><section  class='av_textblock_section av-locw2npk-ff6492e74586499047029e3852d40e90 '   itemscope=\"itemscope\" itemtype=\"https:\/\/schema.org\/BlogPosting\" itemprop=\"blogPost\" ><div class='avia_textblock'  itemprop=\"text\" ><h2>What other \u2018delights\u2019 are there to highlight? Listen to the full episode<\/h2>\n<div class=\"big\"><\/div>\n<\/div><\/section><br \/>\n\n<style type=\"text\/css\" data-created_by=\"avia_inline_auto\" id=\"style-css-av-309ayd-72d9c2515bba3398d55b73ac3422bd98\">\n#top .hr.hr-invisible.av-309ayd-72d9c2515bba3398d55b73ac3422bd98{\nheight:50px;\n}\n<\/style>\n<div  class='hr av-309ayd-72d9c2515bba3398d55b73ac3422bd98 hr-invisible  avia-builder-el-38  el_after_av_textblock  el_before_av_button '><span class='hr-inner '><span class=\"hr-inner-style\"><\/span><\/span><\/div><br \/>\n<div  class='avia-button-wrap av-locw3fu1-d91d259a2e8cf5ad2f7e7ffd7dcde78b-wrap avia-button-left  avia-builder-el-39  el_after_av_hr  avia-builder-el-last  tl-custom-bt-or'>\n<style type=\"text\/css\" data-created_by=\"avia_inline_auto\" id=\"style-css-av-locw3fu1-d91d259a2e8cf5ad2f7e7ffd7dcde78b\">\n#top #wrap_all .avia-button.av-locw3fu1-d91d259a2e8cf5ad2f7e7ffd7dcde78b{\nfont-size:17px;\nborder-style:none;\nborder-radius:0 0 0 0;\nbox-shadow:none;\ntransition:all 0.4s ease-in-out;\npadding:11px 26px 11px 26px;\n}\n#top #wrap_all .avia-button.av-locw3fu1-d91d259a2e8cf5ad2f7e7ffd7dcde78b:hover{\ncolor:black;\nopacity:1;\ntransition:all 0.4s ease-in-out;\n}\n#top #wrap_all.avia-button.av-locw3fu1-d91d259a2e8cf5ad2f7e7ffd7dcde78b:hover .avia_button_background{\nborder-radius:0 0 0 0;\n}\n<\/style>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasters.spotify.com\/pod\/show\/techleapnl\/episodes\/Episode-14-Special-2021-wrap-up--lessons-learned-with-Constantijn-van-Oranje--Joe-Wilson-e1cui31\" class=\"avia-button av-locw3fu1-d91d259a2e8cf5ad2f7e7ffd7dcde78b avia-icon_select-no avia-size-large avia-position-left avia-color-theme-color-highlight avia-font-color-black\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><span class='avia_iconbox_title' >Listen to the full episode<\/span><span class='avia_button_background avia-button avia-color-theme-color-highlight' ><\/span><\/a><\/div><\/p><\/div><\/div><!--close column table wrapper. Autoclose: 1 -->\n\n<\/div><\/div><\/div><!-- close content main div --><\/div><\/div>\n<style type=\"text\/css\" data-created_by=\"avia_inline_auto\" id=\"style-css-av-6fnsec-d567ad56378f502d736a717e9e48bb88\">\n.avia-section.av-6fnsec-d567ad56378f502d736a717e9e48bb88{\nbackground-color:#ffffff;\nbackground-image:unset;\n}\n<\/style>\n<div id='related-posts'  class='avia-section av-6fnsec-d567ad56378f502d736a717e9e48bb88 alternate_color avia-section-default avia-no-border-styling  avia-builder-el-40  el_after_av_section  avia-builder-el-last  avia-bg-style-scroll container_wrap fullsize'  ><div class='container av-section-cont-open' ><div class='template-page content  av-content-full alpha units'><div class='post-entry post-entry-type-page post-entry-2657'><div class='entry-content-wrapper clearfix'>\n\n<style type=\"text\/css\" data-created_by=\"avia_inline_auto\" id=\"style-css-av-4a1xp0-5b5f73cc11492dbac4402544d1fa5b75\">\n#top .av-special-heading.av-4a1xp0-5b5f73cc11492dbac4402544d1fa5b75{\npadding-bottom:40px;\n}\nbody .av-special-heading.av-4a1xp0-5b5f73cc11492dbac4402544d1fa5b75 .av-special-heading-tag .heading-char{\nfont-size:25px;\n}\n.av-special-heading.av-4a1xp0-5b5f73cc11492dbac4402544d1fa5b75 .av-subheading{\nfont-size:15px;\n}\n<\/style>\n<div  class='av-special-heading av-4a1xp0-5b5f73cc11492dbac4402544d1fa5b75 av-special-heading-h2 blockquote modern-quote modern-centered  avia-builder-el-41  el_before_av_postslider  avia-builder-el-first '><h2 class='av-special-heading-tag'  itemprop=\"headline\"  >Related articles<\/h2><div class=\"special-heading-border\"><div class=\"special-heading-inner-border\"><\/div><\/div><\/div>\n<div  data-slideshow-options=\"{&quot;animation&quot;:&quot;fade&quot;,&quot;autoplay&quot;:true,&quot;loop_autoplay&quot;:&quot;endless&quot;,&quot;interval&quot;:&quot;7&quot;,&quot;loop_manual&quot;:&quot;manual-endless&quot;,&quot;autoplay_stopper&quot;:false,&quot;noNavigation&quot;:false,&quot;show_slide_delay&quot;:90}\" class='avia-content-slider avia-content-slider-active avia-content-slider1 avia-content-slider-odd  avia-builder-el-42  el_after_av_heading  avia-builder-el-last  av-slideshow-ui av-control-default   av-no-slider-navigation av-slideshow-autoplay av-loop-endless av-loop-manual-endless '  itemscope=\"itemscope\" itemtype=\"https:\/\/schema.org\/Blog\" ><div class=\"avia-content-slider-inner\"><div class=\"slide-entry-wrap\"><article class='slide-entry flex_column  post-entry post-entry-4846 slide-entry-overview slide-loop-1 slide-parity-odd  av_one_third first real-thumbnail posttype-post post-format-standard'  itemscope=\"itemscope\" itemtype=\"https:\/\/schema.org\/BlogPosting\" itemprop=\"blogPost\" ><a href=\"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/blog\/prinsjesdag-2023-key-takeaways-from-budget-day-for-the-dutch-startup-and-scaleup-community\/\" data-rel=\"slide-1\" class=\"slide-image\" title=\"Prinsjesdag 2023: Key takeaways from Budget Day for the Dutch startup and scaleup community\"><img decoding=\"async\" fetchpriority=\"high\" width=\"495\" height=\"400\" src=\"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2023\/12\/Prinsjesdag-2023-495x400.webp\" class=\"wp-image-4848 avia-img-lazy-loading-not-4848 attachment-portfolio size-portfolio wp-post-image\" alt=\"\" \/><\/a><div class=\"slide-content\"><header class=\"entry-content-header\"><h3 class='slide-entry-title entry-title '  itemprop=\"headline\" ><a href=\"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/blog\/prinsjesdag-2023-key-takeaways-from-budget-day-for-the-dutch-startup-and-scaleup-community\/\" title=\"Prinsjesdag 2023: Key takeaways from Budget Day for the Dutch startup and scaleup community\">Prinsjesdag 2023: Key takeaways from Budget Day for the Dutch startup and scaleup community<\/a><\/h3><span class=\"av-vertical-delimiter\"><\/span><\/header><div class=\"slide-meta\"><time class='slide-meta-time updated'  itemprop=\"datePublished\" datetime=\"2023-09-25T12:31:47+02:00\" >September 25, 2023<\/time><div class=\"slide-meta-del\">\/<\/div><div class=\"slide-meta-comments\"><a href=\"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/blog\/prinsjesdag-2023-key-takeaways-from-budget-day-for-the-dutch-startup-and-scaleup-community\/#respond\">0 Comments<\/a><\/div><\/div><div class='slide-entry-excerpt entry-content'  itemprop=\"text\" ><div class=\"read-more-link\"><a href=\"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/blog\/prinsjesdag-2023-key-takeaways-from-budget-day-for-the-dutch-startup-and-scaleup-community\/\" class=\"more-link\">Read more<span class=\"more-link-arrow\"><\/span><\/a><\/div><\/div><\/div><footer class=\"entry-footer\"><\/footer><span class='hidden'>\n\t\t\t\t<span class='av-structured-data'  itemprop=\"image\" itemscope=\"itemscope\" itemtype=\"https:\/\/schema.org\/ImageObject\" >\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<span itemprop='url'>https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2023\/12\/Prinsjesdag-2023.webp<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<span itemprop='height'>1133<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<span itemprop='width'>1600<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t<span class='av-structured-data'  itemprop=\"publisher\" itemtype=\"https:\/\/schema.org\/Organization\" itemscope=\"itemscope\" >\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<span itemprop='name'>Sylvie<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<span itemprop='logo' itemscope itemtype='https:\/\/schema.org\/ImageObject'>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<span itemprop='url'>https:\/\/techleap-design.nl\/techleap\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2023\/11\/Techleap_Logo_BrandBlack_Techleap_Logo_Reversed.svg<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t<\/span><span class='av-structured-data'  itemprop=\"author\" itemscope=\"itemscope\" itemtype=\"https:\/\/schema.org\/Person\" ><span itemprop='name'>Sylvie<\/span><\/span><span class='av-structured-data'  itemprop=\"datePublished\" datetime=\"2022-01-18T15:47:56+01:00\" >2023-09-25 12:31:47<\/span><span class='av-structured-data'  itemprop=\"dateModified\" itemtype=\"https:\/\/schema.org\/dateModified\" >2024-03-25 13:01:01<\/span><span class='av-structured-data'  itemprop=\"mainEntityOfPage\" itemtype=\"https:\/\/schema.org\/mainEntityOfPage\" ><span itemprop='name'>Prinsjesdag 2023: Key takeaways from Budget Day for the Dutch startup and scaleup community<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/article><article class='slide-entry flex_column  post-entry post-entry-887 slide-entry-overview slide-loop-2 slide-parity-even  av_one_third  real-thumbnail posttype-post post-format-standard'  itemscope=\"itemscope\" itemtype=\"https:\/\/schema.org\/BlogPosting\" itemprop=\"blogPost\" ><a href=\"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/blog\/from-a-submarine-engineer-to-a-successful-ceo-how-sid-sijbrandij-redefined\/\" data-rel=\"slide-1\" class=\"slide-image\" title=\"From a submarine engineer to a successful CEO: How Sid Sijbrandij redefined the world of SaaS with GitLab\"><img decoding=\"async\" fetchpriority=\"high\" width=\"495\" height=\"400\" src=\"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2023\/08\/GitLab-1-495x400.webp\" class=\"wp-image-4118 avia-img-lazy-loading-not-4118 attachment-portfolio size-portfolio wp-post-image\" alt=\"\" \/><\/a><div class=\"slide-content\"><header class=\"entry-content-header\"><h3 class='slide-entry-title entry-title '  itemprop=\"headline\" ><a href=\"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/blog\/from-a-submarine-engineer-to-a-successful-ceo-how-sid-sijbrandij-redefined\/\" title=\"From a submarine engineer to a successful CEO: How Sid Sijbrandij redefined the world of SaaS with GitLab\">From a submarine engineer to a successful CEO: How Sid Sijbrandij redefined the world of SaaS with GitLab<\/a><\/h3><span class=\"av-vertical-delimiter\"><\/span><\/header><div class=\"slide-meta\"><time class='slide-meta-time updated'  itemprop=\"datePublished\" datetime=\"2023-08-23T12:13:30+02:00\" >August 23, 2023<\/time><div class=\"slide-meta-del\">\/<\/div><div class=\"slide-meta-comments\"><a href=\"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/blog\/from-a-submarine-engineer-to-a-successful-ceo-how-sid-sijbrandij-redefined\/#respond\">0 Comments<\/a><\/div><\/div><div class='slide-entry-excerpt entry-content'  itemprop=\"text\" ><div class=\"read-more-link\"><a href=\"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/blog\/from-a-submarine-engineer-to-a-successful-ceo-how-sid-sijbrandij-redefined\/\" class=\"more-link\">Read more<span class=\"more-link-arrow\"><\/span><\/a><\/div><\/div><\/div><footer class=\"entry-footer\"><\/footer><span class='hidden'>\n\t\t\t\t<span class='av-structured-data'  itemprop=\"image\" itemscope=\"itemscope\" itemtype=\"https:\/\/schema.org\/ImageObject\" >\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<span itemprop='url'>https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2023\/08\/GitLab-1.webp<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<span itemprop='height'>1133<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<span itemprop='width'>1600<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t<span class='av-structured-data'  itemprop=\"publisher\" itemtype=\"https:\/\/schema.org\/Organization\" itemscope=\"itemscope\" >\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<span itemprop='name'>Sylvie<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<span itemprop='logo' itemscope itemtype='https:\/\/schema.org\/ImageObject'>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<span itemprop='url'>https:\/\/techleap-design.nl\/techleap\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2023\/11\/Techleap_Logo_BrandBlack_Techleap_Logo_Reversed.svg<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t<\/span><span class='av-structured-data'  itemprop=\"author\" itemscope=\"itemscope\" itemtype=\"https:\/\/schema.org\/Person\" ><span itemprop='name'>Sylvie<\/span><\/span><span class='av-structured-data'  itemprop=\"datePublished\" datetime=\"2022-01-18T15:47:56+01:00\" >2023-08-23 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Adyen<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/article><\/div><\/div><\/div>\n\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"author":6,"featured_media":2658,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"inline_featured_image":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[45],"class_list":["post-2657","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-blog","tag-the-scale-lab"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2657","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/6"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=2657"}],"version-history":[{"count":10,"href":"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2657\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":3024,"href":"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2657\/revisions\/3024"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/2658"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=2657"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=2657"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/techleap.nl\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=2657"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}